Conspiracy theories dominate a lot of the web and type the rabid core of MAGA canon: That the January 6 rebel was a “false flag” operation; that vaccines trigger autism; and that the 2020 election was “rigged.”
Within the runup to his second marketing campaign, Trump egged on the believers of QAnon, reposting Q-related content material and enjoying QAnon songs (sure, there may be such a factor) in his marketing campaign rallies and movies. (As of 2022, as many as 1 in 5 Individuals—and 1 in 4 Republicans—had been QAnon believers. MAGA’s conspiracist roots run so deep that they even in the end precipitated a crack in Trump’s base. Adherents perceived the administration’s failure to launch the “Epstein information” as a betrayal of QAnon’s key tenets: {that a} Devil-worshipping cabal of pedophilic elites secretly run the world, that Epstein was “proof” of this scheme, and that it was Trump’s future to “save the kids.”
Whereas social scientists and politicians have struggled with methods to beat again the tide of conspiracies, YouTuber and cultural critic Natalie Wynn—generally known as ContraPoints—is reaching huge audiences together with her movies. Wynn, an ex-philosophy PhD scholar, has constructed an award-winning commentary channel devoted to countering the rising tide of right-wing extremism on YouTube. She produces extensively researched, expertly set-designed, and meticulously costumed feature-length video essays for an viewers of 1.9 million subscribers. “One of many hallmarks of Wynn’s rhetorical fashion is her capacity to get her viewers to see issues from one other particular person’s perspective,” Nancy Jo Gross sales wrote in a 2021 Guardian profile.
Her newest video, “CONSPIRACY,” has racked up greater than 4 million views with a deep dive into the historical past and dynamics of conspiracist pondering in America, and the way conspiracism undermines democracy. The success of her method may maintain essential classes for methods to loosen conspiracists’ grip on American politics.
This interview has been edited for size and readability. The complete interview is out there at YouTube, Spotify and iTunes.
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Anne Kim: To set the desk for our viewers, you host a YouTube channel below your alter ego, ContraPoints, which has practically two million subscribers. You’ve gained awards on your commentary and also you’ve been fearless in your dissections of right-wing ideology. You’ve critiqued incel tradition, transphobia, and racism, and carried out video essays which have coated a variety of subjects, ethics, politics, gender, philosophy. I believe you had been as soon as a PhD scholar in philosophy. Your newest video, “CONSPIRACY,” is a two hour 40 minute tour de power. There’s actually no different option to describe it. It’s about conspiracist pondering in America, and I discovered each minute to be riveting. We need to discuss your method in creating this video, however what prompted you to sort out this matter within the first place?
Natalie Wynn: Thanks. My channel has typically coated fringe points of digital tradition. Again in 2017, I did a number of stuff on what was on the time known as the “alt-right,” however which has now more and more turn into the Republican Social gathering. So I suppose that is type of my beat in a means. I keep in mind spending a number of time on-line as a youngster, throughout the Bush administration. At the moment, conspiracy theories had been in every single place on-line—largely about 9/11. However there was a type of acceleration of it, and a mainstreaming of it, that occurred throughout the first Trump administration. Most fascinating to me was QAnon, due to simply how unique that exact conspiracy idea bought. And likewise the truth that it performed a significant position in motivating hundreds of individuals to aim to overturn an election. I truly regretted not doing a video about QAnon again in 2020. However I assumed that by the point 2024 got here round, it was nonetheless related.
Gillen Tener Martin: This video has gained 4 million views, reaching past even your subscriber base. Whom are you hoping to succeed in with this video?
Natalie Wynn: I thought of this query lots whereas I used to be engaged on it. Am I going to attempt to persuade people who find themselves deep within the conspiracy world? Am I attempting to persuade them to cease it? I made a decision ‘no, I’m not going to try this.’ I don’t assume it’s the type of factor that you could simply purpose individuals out of.
Who I needed the video to emotionally resonate most with are family and friends of people that have gone down the rabbit gap. I believe there is a component of catharsis in listening to somebody analyze this factor that has induced a number of misery in your life. I believe hundreds of thousands of Individuals and other people all over the world are in that scenario.
Anne Kim: You discuss concerning the patterns that conspiracies have in widespread. What are the commonalities that you just’ve noticed within the numerous conspiracies which have taken maintain of our fashionable politics over the past 20 years?
Natalie Wynn: There are actually two varieties of patterns that I analyze. One is the strategy of argument, and one is the content material of the beliefs. A part of my analysis for this video was watching a number of viral conspiracy “documentaries,” I suppose you possibly can name them, which were influential over the past couple of a long time. For the 9/11 “truther” motion, there was this video known as “Free Change,” which was viral on YouTube within the late 2000s. I evaluate it to “Fall of the Cabal,” which was a Fb-viral documentary that onboarded lots of people to QAnon beliefs in 2019 and 2020. What I describe as a typical fashion of argument is mainly a ‘catalog of “anomalies.”
An anomaly is one thing that subjectively feels inconsistent or implausible about an official narrative. So for instance, a 9/11 “anomaly” could be {that a} passport of one of many hijackers was discovered after 9/11 at Floor Zero. How may a passport survive this hearth that burned the constructing down?
The 9/11 conspiracy theories at the least approximate one thing like amassing proof for a particular conclusion. Whereas with a number of the QAnon stuff, it’s arduous to even counsel what the logic could be. It’s like, “take a look at these reptile symbols within the structure of the Vatican.” You talked about I was a philosophy PhD. I dropped out, however I nonetheless bought so far as logic class. And in logic, there are premises that result in a conclusion. I’d not say that “Fall of the Cabal” is something near that.
As a substitute, I believe what they’re doing is creating room for doubt that perhaps all of the world’s establishments are captured by some type of radical evil. That I believe is emotionally highly effective as a result of it makes individuals really feel like they’ve nowhere to go for good info. They will’t belief the press. They will’t belief medical doctors. Clearly, the federal government is corrupt. Clearly, you possibly can’t belief any official historian as a result of they’re all in on it. In order that’s uncomfortable, proper? As a result of it’s uncomfortable to not know what sort of world you’re residing in. It creates this thirst for data, which the conspiracy documentary that you just’re watching then fills in with a bunch of stuff that they haven’t demonstrated with something resembling proof. Nevertheless it fills within the hole that you just’ve simply created by inflicting them to query all the pieces else.
For the content material, I break it down into three main tendencies that I name dualism, symbolism, and intentionalism. Dualism is black and white ethical pondering. Persons are good or persons are evil. And all the world’s establishments, governments, universities—these have all been captured by radical evil. Whereas, we, the conspiracy researchers and the widespread individuals, clearly we’re good.
Intentionalism could be the concept issues occur as a result of somebody consciously wills them to occur. So If there may be an financial recession, nicely, that’s not the product of broadly dispersed, reckless decision-making. It’s not the product of unusual human greed compounding on the stage of hundreds of thousands of little choices. It’s as a substitute like, “Somebody determined there’s going to be a recession now and so they made that occur.” And each single element unfolds in line with plan. In order that’s intentionalism.
Symbolism I evaluate to divination, like studying tea leaves or astrology, the place you’re utilizing associations with symbols that you just try to interpret. You may search for the symbols mainly anyplace. Authorities buildings are place to begin. [So take] once more, the Vatican: it has reptile symbols, a snake is related to Devil, so which means the Vatican might be satanic. A whole lot of the exercise within the QAnon neighborhood on-line was “decoding.” There are these cryptic messages, after which individuals go round in search of clues. I believe that is nearer to divination than it’s to the type of factor {that a} journalist or historian would do, which I believe can be enjoyable for individuals as a result of journalism and historical past are type of tedious, proper? It requires you to gather info and to proportion your perception to proof. Whereas divination is type of enjoyable as a result of you possibly can observe no matter feels emotionally satisfying to you within the second. It’s nearly like free affiliation.
Gillen Tener Martin: I believe it’s widespread to consider conspiracist pondering as a mainstream phenomenon within the U.S. right now, however you hint an enormous historic arc to the beginnings of the Republic. Are you able to discuss a bit about that lengthy arc of conspiracist pondering?
Natalie Wynn: Individuals discuss this just like the web began it. I do assume the web made it worse, however I don’t assume the web began it. I believe the printing press in all probability was the very first thing to make it worse. There was this e-book by John Robison. He’s a [Scottish] author on conspiracy theories, and he was the popularizer of the Illuminati conspiracy idea within the 18th century. They thought the Illuminati was a department of the Freemasons: atheists and anarchists that may trigger revolutions and overthrow all of the world’s governments and all of the world’s religions.
Somebody despatched a replica of his e-book to George Washington, and there’s a correspondence the place George Washington acknowledges having learn the e-book and he kind of says, “Nicely, I’ve heard lots about this. I don’t assume the Freemasons of America are concerned, however I’ll control it.” It’s humorous to me contemplating how “on-line” Illuminati conspiracy theories really feel—the 2010s was a peak of individuals in search of triangles and eyes in every single place, like in Katy Perry music movies. “My God, it’s the Illuminati!” It’s type of humorous that George Washington was having this dialog with somebody.
Anne Kim: Let’s deliver issues again to the trendy day and to Trump. What’s it about Trump and conspiracist pondering that has enabled such an in depth partnership? You may argue that Trump exploits all of the tendencies that you just’ve talked about with a view to leverage and use that pondering to his profit. There are points of Trump that match into what you’re speaking about. He does see the world in very dualistic phrases: black and white, us in opposition to them. However how did Donald Trump turn into the totem for conspiracy theorists and conspiracist pondering, to the extent that he has?
Natalie Wynn: I believe Trump has all the time acknowledged conspiracy pondering as helpful, as this underground pressure of American politics that’s obtainable at any time to be tapped by somebody unscrupulous sufficient to faucet it. In 2015, he went on the Alex Jones present “Infowars,” which I don’t assume some other presidential candidate, actually not one operating for one of many most important two events, has ever gone on. As a result of, you already know, it’s crackpot. However Trump noticed that there have been hundreds of thousands of individuals listening to that, and no politician noticed that as a helpful voting demographic. He did.
I believe that he discovered it helpful particularly in 2020. One of the best ways to plot an actual conspiracy is to theorize a fictional conspiracy, as a result of the existence of a conspiracy justifies a counter-conspiracy. So should you say that the election has been rigged, and in case your followers consider that, then it’s justified to conspire to overturn the election, proper? It’s not like that is the primary election the place individuals have mentioned that it’s rigged or that it’s a conspiracy. Individuals say it mainly each time. However historically, American politicians who lose the election concede and so they inform their followers, “sure, we settle for the outcomes of the election.” And that quells this impulse. However Trump did the other. He fanned the flames up till the purpose of January sixth.
So I believe in a really pragmatic means, he finds conspiracy pondering helpful. Though issues have gotten a little bit awkward currently on account of the Epstein scenario as a result of the Epstein stuff is a load-bearing pillar of conspiracy pondering within the fashionable age. I believe that lots of people, and positively most conspiracy theorists, consider that there’s a huge pedophile conspiracy that includes an enormous proportion of Hollywood and politicians and so forth. I get the sense that Trump has gotten used to the concept he can simply inform his followers, “Yeah, we’re not excited about that anymore,” and so they’ll cease. However this one appears to be a little bit harder. As an enormous a part of QAnon, persons are very hooked up to this, and so it’s a little bit tougher to place a reminiscence maintain on this specific factor.
Gillen Tener Martin: It says lots to me that this has shaped one of the vital notable cracks in his base thus far. And going again to January sixth, I believe it may be straightforward for us now to neglect the connection of conspiracies to that occasion, however within the video you give a extremely good overview of how conspiracy each led to and excused an rebel. Are you able to discuss a bit concerning the position of QAnon and conspiracism in January sixth?
Natalie Wynn: So QAnon all the time had this ingredient of apocalyptic pondering. The thought was that there was going to be this occasion known as “the Storm”’ the place Donald Trump—who they seen as a messiah determine—was going to purge the deep state of the cabal (cannibals, pedophiles, no matter evil people who had taken maintain of it). And there was a rising frustration that this hadn’t occurred. What occurred is a morphing of the thought “Trump goes to abolish the deep state” to “we’re the digital troopers, we’ve been right here all alongside, the purpose of this motion was that it was coaching us to be prepared for this second, and now it’s as much as us to hitch the president in bringing concerning the Storm.”
Clearly, there have been a number of totally different teams at January sixth. There [were] additionally Proud Boys and different individuals bringing their very own agenda to it. However a number of those that I suppose could be thought of “unusual individuals”—individuals who weren’t beforehand concerned in white nationalist gangs, for instance, like accountants and grandmothers—who confirmed up on January sixth had been there due to QAnon conspiracy theorizing.
Anne Kim: Your reference to the accountants and the grandmothers alludes to some extent that you just make in your video about how nearly anybody will be susceptible to conspiracist pondering. May you discuss a little bit bit about what makes somebody extra susceptible to this sort of pondering within the first place?
Natalie Wynn: A few of it’s fairly common. Systematic pondering is tough: it’s unintuitive to people, whereas intentionalist pondering—the concept issues occur on account of plans manifesting—is extra intuitive. However there are issues that I believe trigger particular individuals to actually are inclined to dive into this. One of many massive ones is a few sense of humiliation or having this longing to really feel essential that has been annoyed in different areas of life. That is one thing I observed with essentially the most high-profile movie star conspiracy theorists.
For instance, David Icke is most infamous for the reptilian theorizing that he did starting within the Nineties. However he was a sports activities broadcaster. He introduced on a chat present within the early ‘90s that he was the son of God, and he prophesied a coming period of hurricanes and earthquakes and this kind of revolution. And he was mocked, he was laughed at, and was type of a pariah within the British media. I imply, we are able to perceive why. However I believe from his perspective, that was painful and humiliating. And so there’s this need to be like, “Who did this to me?” And in his case, the reply to that query was reptilians. However I believe that it’s one thing you additionally see with more moderen conspiracy theorists.
Candace Owens, who has actually been on a conspiracy tear not too long ago, wasn’t all the time like this. Again in 2017 or so, she was concerned in Black Lives Matter activism. However there was this incident the place she created a web site known as Social Post-mortem, which was basically a revenge doxing web site for individuals who had been harassed. She bought very detrimental suggestions for this, and I believe the sense of being canceled. She’s talked about this in interviews. She felt like “the media is in opposition to me,” after which she heard Trump speaking about how the media is mendacity, and that basically resonated as a result of she was below assault by the media. So I believe that there’s a way of humiliation in each these instances.
Nevertheless it’s additionally widespread within the common one that will get into conspiracy theories. A way of profession unfulfillment or estrangement out of your children or simply any type of miscellaneous private frustration that you’ve can create a scapegoating impulse. When unhealthy issues occur, individuals desire a kind of satanic mastermind that they will blame. And conspiracism affords that.
Gillen Tener Martin: You make a extremely sturdy case all through the video for the way conspiracist pondering just isn’t appropriate with democracy. Are you able to lay out why?
Natalie Wynn: So the thought of how democracy ideally is meant to operate is that there’s public deliberation about points and it’s potential for us to barter and to purpose about issues and to make compromises. Conspiracism throws a wrench within the works of all of that as a result of it’s so irrational. I nearly need to say a-rational. It’s probably not partaking with purpose in any respect. So if you discover that you just can not purpose along with your neighbors—you possibly can’t actually have a coherent dialog since you don’t know methods to have a coherent dialog with somebody who thinks that the pandemic was attributable to the Rothschilds—I believe it’s an issue for a political system the place individuals want to succeed in at the least some baseline of consensus about what actuality is.
There’s a large spectrum of opinion, a lot of it I’d disagree with, however which I’d nonetheless take into account to be inside the realm of issues that may be argued about. Whereas the concept the Judeo-Bolshevik-Vatican-Freemasons are controlling the White Home by way of reptilian moon radars or no matter … I don’t know methods to discuss that as a result of it’s so not grounded in actuality that discourse itself fails. And that scares me.
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